Hi ISU, if you don’t know it, we have a serious problem. Your judges don’t know your own rules, perhaps you should train them better. For clarity, these are the rules for the GOEs:
There are also deduction for mistakes, but considering that I’m not writing on elements with mistakes – there are mistakes in those two programs, I see them, but now my questions are only on the clear elements – I don’t post them.
Those are the judges of the Men’s competition in the 2021 World Team Trophy.
The screenshot came from the official site, I always prefer to use the official sources, when available. I only added, in red, six nationality. I’m a little naive, so sometimes I need to ask something because I can’t understand on my own: why you don’t write them?
In the Communication No. 2390 relative to the online meeting of April 8, 2021, you decided to adopt the IOC Athletes Rights and Responsibilities Declaration. To me it seems a really good thing, and I went to read the IOC Declaration. I agree with the document. A passage struck me.
Knowing that in the past there were a lot of cases of national bias, the phrases “provides for transparent judging/refereeing” doesn’t include also to say the nationality of the Referee and of the members of the Technical Panel? If he is honest, to write that Mr. Samuel Auxier is American, doesn’t change anything in our respect for him, and it isn’t something that you can’t say for respect of his privacy. I don’t ask for detail as the fact that in the past he was the vice president of the American federation, only the nationality. His nationality is a fact, something that we can know, as the nationality of all the judges and all the skaters, and ignore it because it’s not that important. Most important is what they do, not their nationality, right? So if you don’t write the nationality, it can give to someone a bad impression. And, speaking of bad impression… why often after some times your communications were deleted by your site? One may get a bad impression, and think that you want to hide something.
I’m sorry, sometimes I take a detour in my reflections. I’m sorry also for my bad English, I’m trying to improve but I know that I do a lot of typos and grammatical errors. But I try, and for me is always important to try to improve.
Now I go again on the topic and I’ll remain on topic, I promise it. I don’t write about PCS, even if a serious reflexion on PCS is needed. I write, and ask to you, for a clarification about the GOE of some well executed elements. This is he protocol of Yuzuru Hanyu’s short program.
I highlighted the first two elements of the program, the quadruple Salchow and the combination quadruple toe loop-triple toe loop.
At the combination judge 2, Philippe Meriguet, give a +3. I did a quick check, and with the +5/-5 system from Autumn 2018 Mr. Meriguet give really few +5, none on a jump. Those are his +5:
Nathan Chen, Internationaux de France 2018, SP, StSq2 (from the other judges there are seven +4, one +5);
Jason Brown, Internationaux de France 2018, FS, ChS1 (three +4, five +5);
Nathan Chen, World Championship 2019, SP, StS4 (one +3, two +2, five +5);
Jason Brown, World Championship 2019, SP, CCSp4 (one +3, four +4, three +5);
Shoma Uno, World Championship 2019, SP, CCoSp4 (one +2, one +3, four +4, two +5);
Jason Brown, World Championship 2019, FS, StSq3 (three +3, three +4, two +5);
Nathan Chen, Internationaux de France 2019, SP, StSq4 (one +3, four +4, three +5);
Kevin Aymoz, Internationaux de France 2019, SP, StSq4 (three +3, four +4, one +5);
Nathan Chen, Internationaux de France 2019, FS, ChSq1 (eight +5);
Jason Brown, World Team Trophy 2021, FS, CCSp3 (one +1, one +4, four +5).
Please, can you explain to him that non only it’s possible, but that it’s due, to give a +5 to a skater if his element accomplish five or more bullets?
This is Hanyu’s short program:
Philippe Meriguet, Walter Toigo and Olga Kozhemyakina give a +4 to a quadruple Salchow. Can you ask to explain to them which bullet Hanyu didn’t accomplish among
4) steps before the jump, unexpected or creative entry
5) very good body position from take-off to landing
6) element matches the music
It’s needed that two of them lack for a +4 and really, really, I can’t find even one.
Karen Butcher, Sakae Yamamoto and Walter Toigo give a +4 to the combination. Can you ask to them to explain which bullet Hanyu didn’t accomplish because, again, I can’t find two of them? Philippe Meriguet give a +3, so perhaps for him is lacking one bullet among
1) very good height and very good length (of all jumps in a combo or sequence)
2) good take-off and landing
3) effortless throughout (including rhythm in Jump combination)
Can you ask to him which?
These are the spins.
Karen Butcher, Sakae Yamamoto, Walter Toigo, Lorrie Parker, Jung Sue Lee and Olga Kozhemyakina give a +4 to the Flying Camel Spin. I don’t understand which bullets are lacking among
4) maintaining a centered spin
5) creativity and/or originality
6) element matches the music
In a speed competition, the winner is the athlete that be the first to cross the finish line. I’ts clear, we don’t need explanations. Here the win is based on the marks given by the judges. For a transparent judging, it’s important that it’s clear why the marks are awarded. Without clarity, you broke your own principle. Clarity is something that you have to give to the public, that pay to watch your competitions, but expecially to the athletes, that dedicate their lives to the sport. So, which bullets are lacking?
Philippe Meriguet give a +3. For him can be lacking a bullet among
1) good speed and/or acceleration during spin
2) good controlled, clear position(s) (inc. height and air/landing position in flying
spin)
3) effortless throughout
Which?
At the change sit spin again Philippe Meriguet, but also Walter Toigo, give a +3. Which bullet is lacking among the first three? Karen Butcher, Sakae Yamamoto, Lorrie Parker, Jung Sue Lee and Olga Kozhemyakina give a +4. Wich bullets are lacking among 4-6?
At the Combination spin Philippe Meriguet, Sakae Yamamoto and Jung Sue Lee give a +3. Which bullet among 1-3 is lacking? Karen Butcher, Lorrie Parker and Olga Kozhemyakina give a +4. Wich bullets among 4-6 are lacking?
This is the step sequence:
Philippe Meriguet, Sakae Yamamoto and Walter Toigo give a +4. The bullets are
1) deep edges, clean steps and turns
2) element matches the music
3) effortless throughout with good energy, flow and execution
4) creativity and/or originality
5) excellent commitment and control of the whole body
6) good acceleration and deceleration
Can you ask him which ones are missing among 4, 5 or 6?
This is only a side of the problems, when judges give low marks to elements that accomplish all the bullets, the other side is on the elements that don’t accomplish enough bullets for the marks that they are awarded. For now I omit this check, but you must (not should, must) check all.
This is Yuzuru Hanyu’s free skate:
This is the protocol:
I said I would only look at the good elements, but I have a serious question. We all know that as a second jump Hanyu wanted to do a quadruple Salchow and not a single, but his mistake is reflected in the base value. Rightly, to him were accorded 0.40 points and not 9.70. But the jump came after a step, was high and Hanyu never loose the flow. Which deduction applied Karen Butcher to give to Hanyu a -1? I don’t understand.
Really, not only I don’t see a reason for a negative GOE, but for me the GOE should be at least a +2. I know, the difference in terms of points is really little, but the difference in terms of points is important for the result of the competition. For the fairness of the competition is important that all the elements were evaluate in the right way, independently of their base value. If something is wrong, I start to worry.
And, speaking of something wrong, there are the marks for the combination 3A+2T:
+2 Karen Butcher
+3 Philippe Meriguet, Sakae Yamamoto, Walter Toigo and Olga Kozhemyakina
+4 Lorrie Parker and Jung Sue Lee
The combination accomplished all six bullet, what reason can have them to give a lower mark?
Only three seconds after (three seconds full of steps) Hanyu execudted a wonderful 3 loop. These are the marks:
+1 Karen Butcher (what happened? her other vote buttons for higher marks had broken?)
+2 Philippe Meriguet and Sakae Yamamoto
+3 Walter Toigo, Lorrie Parker and Olga Kozhemyakina
+4 Jung Sue Lee
Please, ISU, can you explain to your judges that the number of revolutions is important for the base value of a jump but not for the bullets? Why a triple jump among Men can’t get a +5? Which bullets are lacking here? I really want an answer.
You know what would be amusing, if it wasn’t sad? In your seminars, you use Hanyu’s triple Axel as an example of jump that deserves a +5 of GOE. Guess how much +5 has earned the wonderful 3A done by Hanyu as last jump? Zero. Two +3 (Meriguet and Parker) and five +4 (Butcher, Yamamoto, Toigo, Lee, Kozhemyakina), zero +5. And I want to know how much bullets Hanyu must accomplish for a +5, considering that with six bullet he got none.
I could go on with the spins or the steps, and check also the other jumps, there are plenty of strange marks, in the perfect elements and also in the imperfect ones. For me the problem is clear, the marks aren’t given according to the rules. So, if all this judges need a year or two to learn the rules, ot also ten, or twenty, so it be. They can take all the time they need to learn, meanwhile someone other can judge the competitions.
I think they label them as “ISU” because referee, technical controller, technical specialists, data and replay operators for ISU events (ISU Championships, Grand Prixs and WTT) are nominated by ISU President (after recommendations of Vice President in consultation with Sport Director and Technical Committees) rather than by the organising committee (like in Challengers and smaller international competitions) or by Federations (like judges). So they label them as ISU because they are there “representing” ISU.
In the past I’ve seen also the judges labeled as ISU. Even if their nomination is done by the ISU, they have a nationality that can influence their decisions, and I prefer to know it without doing a research. But this is a detail, I’m really interested in the ISU’s responses on the GOEs. A pity that they will ignore me, as they ignore all that they don’t like.
yes, in ISU Championships and Olympics also the judges are labelled as ISU too. From GP “downward” they put the flag/name of the country next to the judges.
The Federations they belong to can be seen in the annual list of Officials (in which the “ISU” or “International” status is also listed for each of them) usually released during the Summer. And anyway, some people still officially “belong” to a certain Federation, but have been working/coaching in another country for decades.
On the wider problems on why they seem to score in a way that doesn’t match the rules.
Regardless the problem of national bias and alliances, the quality of judges is possibly an issue they don’t want to face. Try to look at ISU vs Michela Cesaro recent case. Look at the range of PCS marks that the Ice Dance Technical Committee thought that were acceptable for Portesi Peroni/Chrastecky (Rhythm Dance, 2020 Junior World Championships), and then look at the marks of the panel (all of them). I don’t comment on if the Technical Committee’s marks were right or wrong, but if as TC, you think these are the marks to be given and then you look at what was marked, well, you have a big problem that is not national bias but is not knowing how to score.
Officials are “volunteers” and that’s maybe one of the problems. The requirements to stay on the ISU/international list are a) to attend a seminar every X (2 or 3 years depending if you are judges/TC/TS) years b) having judged a certain number (very few…) competitions in the last 2-3 years.
Attending a seminar doesn’t mean they learn if they are not re-tested.
ISU need a big pool of potential judges/officials to cover all the international competitions. So they may not be so strict, especially with the “international” status judges. Yes, it is true that they can’t judge at ISU Championships but they can judge up to Grand Prix events.
At the last seminar for new Referees, the moderator was pretty honest in saying at smaller international competitions, there may be a language barrier with some of the judges.
In the referee’s report, they have a box for comments on the quality of English skills with options such as “understands but can’t discuss (will not considered for promotion)” and “does not understand questions (to be removed from the list)”. When they demoted Balkov from ISU to international status a few years ago, they used the lack of his English skills as the reason.
So they have a group of judges that don’t speak English properly. One would wonder how they passed their exam in first place given it is done in English? And what do they understand from seminars? Yes, they pretend that “they understand but can’t discuss”. But when I struggle so much that I can’t discuss a topic, I usually struggle to understand easily what they are telling me. Or at least, I wouldn’t understand the details.
Thanks for your reply. My words on the nationality of the TP were tangential. I’m a little annoyed when I must check for something that they can write clearly, but it’s nothing serious. I would like to know also when a judge has a link to a federation different from for his official federation, but I know few of this cases and it’s impossible to locate them all.
I’ve read in the past that some judges have problems with English, and I suspected that this could be true even now. I too understand easily an English text, struggle when I’m writing, understand very little when I hear something, and can’t talk. I don’t know how this can be solved, and for a sport diffused worldwide is a serious issue. The rules can be translated, but don’t be able to participate in discussions…
Judges should be paid for their work, but also disqualified if they are biased. How can the ISU not have money? There are the television rights and the sponsors, it other sports can survive with less public, why figure skating can’t?
It’s true that sometimes there is incompetence among judges, I’ve seen a lot of marks that for me can be explained only with incompetence, and those judges fall easily in the common narrative about who is the strongest. All the propaganda that we are seing in the last years is means to influence the judges that are unsure of themselves.
And then there the judges that are moved by patriottism, and ISU could detect easily a lot of them and suspend. Or corrupted judges, and those are more difficult to find. But if the ISU want that the sport is taken seriousty, the ISU must solve the problems with a better formation of the judges, less power given to them, better technology and serious suspension if someone is clearly biased.
“I would like to know also when a judge has a link to a federation different from for his official federation, but I know few of this cases and it’s impossible to locate them all.”
Then there is the whole “who is related to who” and “who used to coach/choreograph who”. This is an issue more frequently among Technical Specialists.
If I could suspect that Pair Technical Specialist Peter Cain may be related to Ashely Cain (he is. her father), it took me a while before understanding that Dance TS Svetlana Liapina is the mother of Jonathan Guerreiro.
“It’s true that sometimes there is incompetence among judges, I’ve seen a lot of marks that for me can be explained only with incompetence, and those judges fall easily in the common narrative about who is the strongest. All the propaganda that we are seing in the last years is means to influence the judges that are unsure of themselves.”
When you look at the marks in smaller international competitions where many skaters are not known and therefore they don’t have a pre-arrenged range of marks to be given, sometimes I see GOEs so all over the place that I really wondered what some judges were watching. I think this happens more in the evaluation of spins.
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